Politically Incorrect - Transcript


James Marsters
Sheryl Underwood
Norah Vincent
Lani Guinier

Bill: Good evening.
Welcome to "Politically Incorrect." Here is our panel tonight.
Sheryl Underwood is here.
You host, "Oh, Drama" every Wednesday and Thursday on B.E.T.
Some fans here.
And you'll be at Caroline's in New York May 16th through the 19th.
Welcome aboard.
Lani Guinier, we all know that name from the Clinton Administration days.
Law professor and the new book, "The Miner's Canary: Enlisting Race, Resisting Power Trips." We'll be talking about that.
Norah Vincent we read you --
I do all the time in "The Los Angeles Times." Also a senior fellow at the Foundation for The Defense of Democracy.
And James Marsters, who is the guy on "Buffy" who can actually really act good.

[ Laughter ]

Give a hand to our panel, if you would.

[ Applause ]

Okay.
So, Lani, this is your book, as I mentioned.
Those who remember the lightning rod you were in the Clinton Administration when they tried to get you for --
what job was it that they wanted you for that you got shot down?

Lani: Assistant Attorney General.

Bill: Assistant Attorney General.
You were a little too controversial.
Okay.
So now you have a book, also controversial.
Because it talks about color blindness, and you don't think, necessarily, that is a great thing.
Which I think would strike a lot of Americans as quizzical because we all remember when Martin Luther King said that we should not be judged by the color of our skin, but the content of our character.
So, here we are in the year 2002.
Why is it --
tell us why it's not cricket that we just judge that way.

Lani: Well, Gerald Torres and I, in "The Miner's Canary," are basically talking about a new way of thinking about race that goes beyond the left or the right approach to color blindness.
On the right, color blindness is a way of limiting race to stigma and to the personal qualities of an individual.
And on the left --

Bill: Why is it limiting?

Lani: Why is color blindness limiting?

Bill: Yeah.
I mean why --

Lani: Because if you --

Bill: Martin Luther King said, "Hey, don't look at us by what color we are.
Judge us by people."

Lani: That's true.
But that was only one line in a long speech.
And he also --

Bill: What was he leaving out there?

Lani: That he supported affirmative action.
That he supported making America do good on its debts.

James: The operative word in the man's language is "Should." We should do this.
Not that we do do this.
And if we don't do this now, how do we work towards doing it? It's obvious.

Norah: You don't work towards doing it by not doing it.

James: And affirmative action is only a very tentative step toward that.
We do not have a --
we do not blur the races.
Anybody who questions this should look at the O.J. trial, should look at programming --
and it appalls me.
Look at programming on B.E.T.

Sheryl: --
That's individual about O.J.

[ Laughter ]

James: How many people --
okay, every white person thought O.J. was guilty.
Every black person thought --

Bill: No.
That shows how --
excuse me.
I like you a lot, but that shows you do not hang around or understand black people.
Because black people never thought O.J. was innocent.

James: I know.
Okay.

Bill: They believed he was guilty.
It's just what they said to the white people.

James: I know.
Okay.

Sheryl: No, let me clarify.
Let me speak for the people.
What this was about, what the O.J. trial was about, 'cause we don't go back in the stone age, we didn't give a damn about O.J. Simpson.
We was cheering Johnnie Cochran for taking the white man's rules and beating a white man at the white man's game.

[ Applause ]

That's what we were cheering.

Bill: Exactly.
They knew he was guilty.
Okay.

Sheryl: I can't say we knew.

Lani: Could we move to something that's a little more substantive?

Sheryl: This show ain't substantive? Where do you think you're at, B.E.T.?
[ Laughter ]

James: My point is --
I'm coming out of the canons, man.
The point is there is not a blurring of the races.
We live in an almost apartheid situation.
And we need to take serious action.

Sheryl: Hey, hey, hey.
Don't use apartheid.
That's too inflammatory.

James: There's a schism between blacks and whites and other races.
And if you look at B.E.T. and who watches B.E.T.
And who doesn't watch B.E.T. --

Sheryl: Y'all watch B.E.T.
It wouldn't be on if y'all wasn't watching it.
Y'all watch B.E.T.

James: All I'm saying is we live in a stratified racist country, but we should admit it.

Sheryl: Here's my question, Bill.
What is wrong with saying that somebody is black and they're doing good? Just like they just had the Academy Awards.
We had Sydney Poitier get an honorary award, and what's that little cute white boy that was in the movies with Barbara Streisand? Robert Redford --
get an award on the same night.

[ Laughter ]

They give y'all stuff, they give us stuff.

Bill: He hasn't been a boy since way before O.J.

[ Laughter ]

Talk about the stone age thing.

Sheryl: I don't see what's wrong --

Bill: Talk about racially blind.

Sheryl: But to say things like color blind.
Things will never be color blind because I love being the color that I am.
And what's wrong with you celebrating that? But it doesn't mean that that's all that I am.

Bill: No one's saying that.

[ Applause ]

If you're way off the --
let me address, and agree with you that we do, in a lot of ways, live in two different worlds.
I brought this up recently with the R. Kelly thing because it was all anybody who I know who is black was talking about.
And nobody I could find who was white knew what I was even talking about.

Sheryl: Oh, the tape.

Bill: The tape, yes.
>>> Lani: Do you do anything like that?

Bill: No.
I've never had a number one hit.
But believe me, he had a number one hit.

[ Light laughter ]

You see? People do not know what I'm talking about.
To this day.

James: I'm going to have a drink of water, now.

Bill: Anyway --
yeah.
Listen to this, though.
In the last 20 years, multiracial births in California increased by over 40%.
There are more kids in this state born to parents of different races than there are born to two black parents.
So my question is how can we have affirmative action when we don't know whose action needs affirming anymore?

Sheryl: I agree with that.
We never should have had affirmative action.
Because affirmative action is something that says, "You've been done wrong.
So, we're going to give you some kind of program --
"

Bill: Right.

Sheryl: "--
That's allegedly going to rectify this."

Bill: Right.

Sheryl: And really, it was us arguing for it.
And now, we don't even get to use it anymore.
You know who gets to use it? And please, white women, don't write in.
But white women get to use it.
Immigrants that come over get to use it.
Everybody but us.
You've never seen any black person go into a company and say, "I'm here to interview for the affirmative action job." Get rid of it.
We don't need it.
I don't need a helper.
There's no affirmative action in comedy, so we don't need it.

James: I completely agree.

Bill: Wait a second.
Because I wanted your job on B.E.T. and I could not --

[ Laughter ]

--
Even get in the door.

James: I completely agree with you.
I lump affirmative action in with welfare.
What should have happened under the Johnson Administration is multiple jobs programs.
Head start up the Yin-yang.
And trying to make a level playing field so that America can finally reach its potential.
What they gave us was affirmative action and welfare, which are woefully inadequate.
It doesn't mean we have to stop addressing the situation.
It means we have to rethink it.

Bill: But let me ask you what you think about that.
'Cause in 1990, the census had only five categories --
black, white, Asian, Native American and Mariah Carey.

[ Laughter ]

I'm kidding.
And in the year 2000, the census has 63 categories.
Aren't we really all blending together so that we really don't know who should get the affirmative action?

Lani: Well I have several answers to that.
The first is my mom is white, my father was black.
And if what you're saying in terms of the blurring of the races is that, in 3,000 years, everyone is going to look like me --

Bill: 3,000?

Lani: Yes.
Then maybe --

Bill: It's going on now.

Lani: It is not going on now.
If you look, for example, 93% of black people marry other black people.
70% of white people marry other people.
The blending is going on among Latinos and among Asians.
It is not going on among whites and blacks.

Bill: Well it is in this state.
Because, like I said, more kids are born to parents of different races than to two black parents.

Lani: No, but that's only because there are only a few black people, percentage-wise, in this state.
So it wouldn't take a lot of --

Bill: A few black people in this state? You gotta be kidding.
Have you been to compton?
[ Laughter ]

I have to break.
We'll be back.

[ Applause ]

Colin Powell continued his "Don't Make Me Come Up There" tour --

[ Laughter ]

--
Of the mideast today.
He was in Cairo with Egyptian President Mubarak.
And President Bush gave him three directives --
get the Egyptians on board, press for a cease-fire and, by all means, get an autograph from the Scorpion King.

[ Laughter ]

Bill: More bad news for the Catholic church.
Apparently, the Boston Archdiocese at one point vouched for the Reverend Paul Shanley, who, in the '70s, defended pedophilia at a Nambla meeting.
In a related story, the Village People have reunited with a cop, a construction worker, an indian, and a priest.

[ Laughter ]


[ Applause ]

All right, so, we're talking about race, this is your book, "The Miner's Canary." And you mean by that that blacks are sort of the canary in the mine in this culture.
Okay, tell us what --

Lani: It's a diagnostic tool that can enable us to see what is happening, not just to the canaries, but to the atmosphere in the mines.

Bill: Right, to the society at large.
Okay, and in society at large, of course, we have in this country mainly three big classes --
white, black and Latino.
Also Asian, of course, but they're not as big as those three, the first three.
And you talk about something called racial bribery, which I think is interesting.
Describe that for us, because that has to do with co-opting the Latinos, right? That the white people, like, get some of the Latinos over to their side, "Come on, be on our team, separate the people who hate us from the ones who are undecided."

Lani: What happens to Cubans in this country is what happens to many immigrant groups.
When they come here they are essentially offered the opportunity, some of them, to become white, and to distance themselves from blacks and --

Bill: Well, how would you become white?

Sheryl: Because to my understanding they are white Hispanics and these were Spanish people from Europe, or lighter-colored Cubans, or South American.
We have it, too.
We have it in Africa, they're called Arabs.

Bill: There's also prejudice within black people.

Sheryl: No, we don't have prejudice.

Bill: Within black people?

Sheryl: No, we don't.

Bill: Oh, please.

[ Light laughter ]

Oh, right, I never heard the term "High yeller." I never heard nobody yelling that one out.

[ Talking over each other ]

Sheryl: No, there's no prejudice in that we just know that --
okay, look, this is how we go.
She obviously was in the big house, how people were living now.

[ Laughter ]

Bill: Exactly.

[ Applause ]


[ Talking over each other ]

Sheryl: Now, I was out in the field with --
kicking it, partying, doing things --

Lani: But not partying.

Sheryl: --
But I was still with the master, you know, because I wanted to eat and have a nice little shack like she did, but I was doin' my stuff on the under, getting all the information, going back to the slaves and goin', "Look, y'all need to run now because I done put the master to sleep.
I done put it on him and run, run."
[ Laughter ]

So it's two sides of black people --
there are those of us that were considered dark skin, which is true black --

Bill: Right.

Sheryl: --
Even for black people.
Because I couldn't get a date until Black History Month because I'm true black, I'm dark.

[ Light laughter ]

And then there were sister Guinier's type, the nice, light, with the pretty hair and everything that was comfort to the masses.
Did I explain that to you right?

Bill: It's a really polite way --

Sheryl: But which one of us would you want to kick it with, though?
[ Laughter ]

That's the question I want to know.
And that's why I wore this low-cut sweater so I can know --
can I get hooked the hell up?
[ Laughter ]

Can I get some of the Playboy Bunny love?
[ Laughter ]

Norah: If this is a parable, are you basing this on some larger statistics or is this a theory, a working theory? I'm just curious where you're getting this notion from.

Lani: It's not a notion.
When you think about every immigrant group that has come to the United States, essentially they have been offered the opportunity to become white.
And it is not simply to become white, but to distance themselves from blacks because blacks anchor the racial binary in this society so that --

Bill: But shouldn't they have the choice? I mean, there are many blacks, even dark skinned --

Lani: It's not a question of choice.

Bill: --
Blacks who, you know, "Act white." You know, they get accused of that.

Lani: But see, what we're trying to talk about here, and this goes back to your question about color blindness, is not what you look like, that's the problem with color blindness is that it assumes race is only about what you look like, it's about your phenotype or about your skin color.
And we're talking about race as a political category, as a verb, not a noun.
Meaning that race really tracks power, it tracks the distribution of resources in ways that not only affect a disadvantaged people of color, but also disadvantaged working class and poor whites.
The difference is it's visible when it collects around black people, it's invisible when it collects around working class --

James: I have something to add here.
I think a lot of the reason that blacks have not been afforded the same melting pot experience that all other people who come to this nation have is that there is fear, anger and guilt.
Black people are mad about what happened to them.

Sheryl: What happened to us?
[ Light laughter ]

James: Please.

Sheryl: No, I want to know.
I want to know.
I want to know what are you talking about that happened to us?

Bill: Come on, what are you talking about in --

[ Talking over each other ]

Sheryl: No, no, no.
No, because first you said, "Fear, guilt --
" Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.

[ Talking over each other ]

James: I'm not gonna stop talking until you shut your beautiful mouth, please.

[ Laughter ]

Sheryl: I'm glad you said it was beautiful, but you always want to go back to what happened to us.
What are you talking about? Are you talking about slavery?

James: 200 years ago is a drop in the bucket.

Bill: Yeah, stop pretending.

James: Okay, we are all --

Sheryl: I'm just saying that we did not start at slavery.
There were free black people in --

[ Everyone talking ]

Bill: Wait a second, let me explain something to you.

[ Talking over each other ]

Wait a second.
Let me tell you what happened here.
He was making a point, he was saying black people are still mad, but he was defending them, but apparently you're so mad you attacked him for defending you.

[ Laughter ]


[ Applause ]

Sheryl: Because all of us are not mad.
All of us are not mad.

Bill: I understand that.
I understand that, but --

Sheryl: All of us are not mad.
It's the people that make money off of pimping race that are trying to say we are mad.
All of us are not mad so get off it.

James: Okay, I've offended you, but let me make my point, all right?

Sheryl: Thank you, I will accept sex for barter to make me feel better.

[ Laughter ]

James: At this point we're gonna have to work on that.
Now, if I can finish my point --

Sheryl: Okay, go ahead.

James: Over the course of 400 years in this country --

Norah: You gonna make this an election now?

James: Yes, I am.
600 million people died, black people died under slavery.

Bill: 600 million?

James: 600 million over the course of 400 years.
We are talking about more than 1 million a year, okay? This is not a small thing.
This is a huge legacy and if we don't face it, we are gonna burn.
Not in 25 years, maybe not in 100 years, but we are either gonna fly or sink on this issue.
And the reason that people, that blacks have not been included in the --

Sheryl: Go, Reverend, go!

James: Well, you pissed me off, so --

[ Laughter ]

The reason that they have not been included in the melting pot is because all of us white people are afraid that you're mad at us.
A lot of white people --
and there's a lot of guilt floating around.

Lani: Can I give you another theory?

Bill: Wait, wait, wait.
I have to take a break.
But those are powerful words from a guy who dyed his head white.

[ Laughter ]

We have to take a break.
We'll be right back.

[ Applause ]

Bill: Well, happy birthday today to my friend, Hugh Heffner.
He is 76 today.

[ Cheers and applause ]

Heff spent the day doing a little gardening.
You know how he insists on neatly trimmed bushes.

[ Laughter ]


[ Applause ]

See, you wanted a little --

Sheryl: Yeah, bunny love.

Bill: Bunny love.
There you go.
Okay.
So here's my question now.

[ Light laughter ]

--
By all reasonable means, what he was saying would be something that I would think that black people would listen to and go, "He's defending us.
He's extending sympathy." But apparently, that's not good.

Sheryl: Unnecessary.

Bill: Now, I always said that I would be a bad black person, 'cause I'm kind of like a take-no-crap guy.
I'd be like Ice Cube, I'd always have that scowl.
You know? We kind of are in a place where if we are sympathetic, that's no good.
And if we're not, that's no good.
So, what should we do? Just go away?

Lani: That was what I was trying to get at earlier, that it's not just about individual prejudice or individual bigotry.
The issue of race is not, I don't think it's that white people assume all black people are mad.
And I don't think all black people are mad.
I think that was Sheryl's point.

Bill: I don't think he was saying that.

Norah: But the question is what to do about it.
I mean, everyone understands --

Lani: And in order to do something that is constructive, we need to use race as diagnostic tool.
Because so much information collects around race.
So, for example, if you look at admission to institutions of higher education, you'd think that the problem is that the S.A.T.
only adversely affects blacks and Latinos when, in fact, working-class and poor whites don't do as well on the S.A.T. as more affluent whites.
If you look, for example, at the results of proposition 209 in 1997, 42% of the white freshmen at Berkeley came from families with incomes of over $100,000 a year.

Sheryl: But that's a class issue.
It's not a racial issue.
And white people are not allowed to say, "Stop picking on us."

Bill: Sheryl, you said to me in the break, you just heard that chief Parks, our police chief here in L.A., they got rid of him today.

Sheryl: Yeah.

Bill: And you said he was a bad police chief.

Sheryl: I don't think he was a good chief.

Bill: But if you say that, you're an Uncle Tom.

Sheryl: That's right.
That's right.
And I think that's unfair.
And I think, black people, we got played.
We gave our votes to a certain individual.
We thought the chief was going to be protecting, we were going to have some power in City Hall.
And they played us like they always do.
So we need to start --

[ Talking over each other ]

Bill: But you're saying he was one of those that got racially bribed?

Sheryl: Oh, we got pimped.
Put it like that.
We got pimped.
And now Magic is going to be the mayor.

[ Laughter ]

Get ready, 'cause Magic is gonna run.
But I gotta say this.
I feel so sad for white people.
White people are not allowed to have this type of discussion.
When you have a racial discussion, you would think there's only two races ever --
black and white.
White people are not allowed to say, "Look, I deserve just as much of an opportunity as anybody else." And then, we always talk about, "Well, we want white people to treat us equally." Equally means the same.
So you can push me down, not let me go to school, not let me run a business, not let me have the quality of life like anybody else --

Lani: Here's the part that I agree with, and that is not all white people are privileged, affluent, suburban housewives.
And when we just talk about race, we tend to essentialize both races, that is blacks and whites, Latinos and Asians.
And the fact of the matter is, when you look at who's doing well, it is not just white people, it is affluent white people, and it is particularly affluent white men.

Bill: Well, I gotta get out of this discussion before it comes around to me.
We'll take a break.
We'll be right back.

[ Applause ]

Bill: All right.
There's your book, Lani Guinier.
Interesting stuff for an interesting discussion.
"The Miner's Canary." Everybody here, we can all get along, right? No shizzel on that one, my nizzel.

[ Applause ]